Hidden Gems: A Board Game Podcast
A board game podcast where your hosts Chris Alley, Cameron Lockey, Jason Yanchuleff, and Bill Arney review unusual, forgotten and under-appreciated board games.
Hidden Gems: A Board Game Podcast
71. Christmas Spectacular: Stocking Stuffers for 2024
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Twas the day before Christmas, and all round the world, the gamers awaited, the adults, boys, and girls. The stockings are hung by the chimney with care, but no brief, tiny games have yet been stuffed there. When what to my wondering ears should appear, came a new Christmas episode full of gems, joy, and cheer!
FEATURED GAMES:
00:00:00 Intro & Banter
00:30:52 Christmas Trivia
00:47:25 Tetrix (Mosaics)
01:07:42 R. Eco.
01:34:27 Roll Through the Ages
MUSIC (courtesy of https://epidemicsound.com):
Trivia: "Everlasting Yule", Home for the Holidays; "Pizzicato Dance", Howard Harper-Barnes; "A Holly Jolly One", Arthur Benson
Tetrix: "Virtual" - AGST
R. Eco: “Absolutely Sure”, North Sphere
Roll Through the Ages: “New Civilization”, Wendel Scherer
FOLLOW US:
Email: hiddengemsboardgamepodcast@gmail.com
Patreon: https://patreon.com/hiddengemspodcast
BGG Guild #: 3874
Discord: https://discord.gg/bakZ332pup
Hidden Gems: A Board Game Podcast is produced and edited by Chris Alley, Cameron Lockey, Jason Yanchuleff. and Bill Arney in Raleigh, NC.
Hidden Gems, episode 71, Stocking Stuffers for Welcome to Hidden Gems, a board game podcast where forgotten, and underappreciated board games. We're your hosts. My name is Chris.
BillThis is Bill.
Cameronand I'm Cameron. Thanks for listening to our show.
BillMissed you last
CameronI missed you guys.
Chrisguys.
Billto do your chipper intro at the end, and I don't think I hit
Cameronyour tone.
ChrisYou said, I missed you last week, and I was trying to think shoot, we recorded last week. Yeah, man. We're I won?
BillWe're
ChrisWe're trying folks to make up for our long hiatus. this is as close together as we've recorded in a long
CameronAbsolutely. Yeah. You know, it's really funny. So, I have a fun story chaos that is trying to things done. Uh, so every year around Christmas time, It's a tradition that in my very lengthy marriage Casey and I have tried to keep up, which is that each year add a Christmas
ChrisYeah. for
Cameronthe year. It's kind of like meant the family represent the year in So, for example, the, uh, the year that I got married 2020, um, we did actually did not want a pandemic related, ruined our wedding plans,
ChrisYeah, it did.
Cameronornament. So, what we got ourselves was actually, fish a fish lure we snipped the barbs off of. And the funny story about that is we really got into fishing. in 2020, we had just gotten married. It was like, what are we going to So we started basically going and fishing ponds around the area. Eventually got then eventually got And so we're like, fishing's like a cool It just happened that one of the days after we had gone fishing, I was like getting the gear all packed up and everything and taking the stuff out. And I had the rods out of the back of the truck. And I walked the back of my truck to get bent down and snagged shoulder. On this particular fishing lure. And it literally went through my shirt, through my skin deep enough to where it buried the barb.
Chrisbarb.
Cameronwas standing in the driveway. Casey had gone inside and I'm sitting there going, I can't move. If I move, I'm going to rip it like out of my skin and I can't reach So I'm just sitting down in the driveway behind my truck going, Casey, she comes out, she comes out looking for me. And I'm like. KZ, I can't move! And so she had to, and thankfully my, my wife is a PA, so she has familiarity And so it didn't freak her out at all, which was good. But, uh, I mean, I was bleeding and tangled up treble hooks. and so she literally had to like, you know, sorry for the graphic description, but she had to like, it the rest of the way through to get the barb out and then I had to lead her Verbally wire cutters and she had to clip the other end of the barb off that way and then pull it back out
Chrisout to
Cameronget it to get it off. So we're just like, you know what we're gonna we're gonna cut off the other barbs and we're gonna hang this on
Christree. And
CameronRemember this forever
Chrisawesome. What a memory.
CameronSo that was 2020. So this year, because we've been parenting two very young and all sorts of other, just chaotic wrecked Um, you guys know the meme. the dog
ChrisOh yeah,
Cameronis fine. That's our Christmas
Chrisone.
BillThat's
CameronWe wrote a nice scripture verse on the back about, you know, how, when you walk through the fire, you'll with you and everything. Cause we're like, we can't, we still want to honor God and at Christmas time, but also that was what our year felt like.
ChrisOh yeah, no, I totally
CameronSo it's good to be here for us to be recording a show, you know, not, and a half
ChrisWe're glad you're here, man. I know you're a little bit sniffly tonight and not feeling like super great. But I do appreciate you being here. Uh, we did record a little early this time because I'm going up to New York City next week, Christmas in New York, which I'm pretty excited about. I'm going to do all the Christmassy things, Rockefeller catch some shows, Fifth Avenue, Macy's, all that.
BillSo my wife went last year her cousin had a time
ChrisOkay.
BillAnd I will say one thing not to do there's a bus tour of the New York lights.
Chrisdon't do any of Yeah, we, we don't do bus tours, group tours. We've never, nothing against it. It's just not our preferred way to travel. Even when we went to Japan and Tokyo Kyoto, it was a little scary because very different place. Right. I thought about get lost. And I was like, nah, we're not doing we got around So yeah, we tend to
BillI'll say most of the time I go to a place new, especially if I'm by myself, I'll do a, like a half day bus tour and then go back to the
Chrisway to kind of scope it out.
Billright
Cameronthat's how I did you know, I don't have no clue So if I just buy this 20 stops and like get on it's cool. Okay. Yeah. It's not, it's not a bad tour. There's a lot of kind of fun, fun stuff to do there.
Chrisso what's new, Bill? Merry Christmas. You look great. You got the Santa suspenders on. You brought the Santa hats. We're feeling very festive tonight.
BillChris. Chris prompted. Say, Hey, bring the Santa. He wants to be in the Christmas
ChrisI need it.
BillYeah, awesome.
CameronI'm taking one for the team. I'm wearing the UNC blue one so that Chris didn't have to Yeah,
ChrisBill threw that in my direction I about came across the table at him.
BillI want to have some sort of game of chance. So the loser had to wear, No, I don't have a whole lot to say about things I did. I mean, one of the things that, uh, I wanted to talk about a little bit was, a little bit more was the Age of Comics that we talked about last week, just cause I did a little bit of a deep dive accidentally. when I got the, the board game just because I was kind of curious about it and I was curious really about the, the golden era,
ChrisIt is a
BillIt is a cool era. Uh, but it's way more complicated than I thought it because comic books really were a thing in like the 1930s and especially in the 1940s. And there was no, no regulations around it. And that's when, all those, genres popped up of, of science fiction horror, right. And, uh, right. And, and detective things and things with, women criminals and things like that
Chrislike that. Yeah,
Billyeah, exactly. And, to the point where, The Congress got involved because they thought they were afraid that it was corrupting all
ChrisExactly.
Billa guy named Murphy, who was a child psychologist was, saying that, you know, there's a kid in New York who killed somebody. There were some other people committing crimes. This is like a how to way to do things by reading these comics. And so there was a, uh, A long period there of government hearings about, you know, how, what they were going to do about it. Well, they had a recess for like eight when the fear was there was going to be some sort of legislation when the comic book industry decided they would legislate And that's uh,
ChrisCodes
Billyeah, the common Exactly. And Murphy was the guy who was But, to me, when I thought of the Golden Age of Comics, I thought about it being Boy Scout comics, right here, I am to save the day, you know, the kind of the whole dialogue that you see Superman
Chrisdoing Right, right.
Billkind of thing. Uh, and that really didn't happen until after that 1950s parents had, burning parties, where they ended up these comics
ChrisYeah, actually, so interestingly, I'll just interject quickly know, comics are near and dear to me, Batman. A lot of people don't know this, but Golden Age, Batman, like pre well, I shouldn't say pre 'cause Batman never stopped getting published. It's one of the few golden age comics that actually that period during the Comics Code comic sales just dropped off the map and a getting printed. But Batman actually used a gun and shot the Golden which is not at all in his character. If you're more familiar
Cameronjust ties people up and hangs
Chrisyes, he's actually very anti because that's how his parents were the alley. And so he has a revulsion. won't kill, even though a lot of including like his partners, like his Robins are like, why joker? Like Right. But he morally won't do it. But pre crisis golden age, Batman shot with a gun. A hundred percent.
BillThey knew what justice but the other thing that was, was kind of interesting to me was there was a lot of, uh, roots set down later characters. 'cause there was a spider queen, I don't know if you know about that, They basically had the same transportation method as the Spider-Man
ChrisNever heard of spider Queen. I mean, there's Spider Woman, but I don't
Billthe there's a few others yeah, very fascinating age things that were way more off color, I guess, and not the Boy Scout I used, I used to think of was totally the much
Chrisguess. Also, that, I just caught wind of this a couple there's actually a project in the works now to bring back and publish for the first time comics, horror comics that were cancelled and not published and the 30s due to the and to revive and actually bring them they were banned
BillI will mention one comic was, banned, or actually was changed from the comic book that was a sci fi one, where this astronaut, this sounds very, Twilight but an astronaut goes to this planet that completely populated by androids. And there were orange And, they, were wanting to join the Federation of Planets kind of thing, and this astronaut was evaluating could, you never saw the, the astronaut's face all his, mask on, and the two sets of androids could never integrate were always separate because they, they come up with a method to be at peace and integrate with federation. And the last panel of the comic was the guy took his helmet off and he was a black the comic book authority was like. We can't do that.
Christhey,
BillThey did. And they forced it to be a white So it would be interesting if that can come back and be like a black guy. It's the kind it's, it's super interesting. What would the, what the politics
Chriswas
Billfascinating
ChrisThat's cool, Bill. for sharing. I love the classic but yeah, I love It Thanks for sharing your game with us last Ah, you know, it wasn't you, Bill.
Billno, I get
Chrisof
BillI have one comment. You know, you don't have to win every round.
ChrisWell, that that was my whole point was I feel revulsion towards games where I intentionally have to try to not do
BillThat's not, that's not necessarily not still make the same amount of
ChrisYeah, but if you're have to pass on want to have the bleh. No.
Cameronjust
Billstrategy, but Okay.
ChrisI, Bill. I also pointed out the fact that there was strategy in that. I just don't enjoy it. I don't, I
CameronSo if you want to hear more of that you're going to need to go watch episode 70.
ChrisReopening old wounds,
BillThat's still not
CameronMaybe this is why we leave such a long gap between episodes.
Billgap between.
CameronSo the friendship can heal in
Chriswhat about you, Cameron? You got anything else to talk to Bill? And I've been bantering. I've got one more thing, but I You've been quiet for
Cameronminute. Yeah, I got, I gotta have a couple of, uh, uh, of things. So, uh, I, I thought this was kind of fun to, pair these together they, both happen to be things that Chris suggested, in the past. And one of them the podcast. I don't get to play a lot of video games, but I did get to play. The pedestrian. I was looking at I looked at it like right when we were recording, I at my alley. It's kind of puzzly. yeah, I was thinking it was something that Casey and I would enjoy together.
Billswitch
Cameronyeah, we played it, played it on too. So I got it on switch and I enjoyed it. it definitely gets. pretty challenging. and I had only like kind of one issue with it it was almost, and maybe this is just where I'm at in cognitive capacity. I would get tired of Uh, I would do kind of like, I would do like a run at a time get to kind of the next big stage or Um, so I probably beat
Chrismaybe?
Cameronit kind of just took my time with it to make sure I but you mentioned, and it was funny because I, I don't know that I would kept playing if you hadn't review of it, that something happens that it's kind of
Chrislike, there's a huge payoff
Cameronpayoff that happens another game that I played in the past and really enjoyed when I got to was so
Chriscool. It was, wasn't it?
Cameroncool. And I don't want to give away too, too much, but I hope it's okay. If I
ChrisYeah,
Cameronfeel like. Chris knows what I'm gonna talk about. Cause we already so when you get to this the game changes feels. Like and Myst is, if you don't know it, it's, it's an old game. If you've known, if you know it, you probably I have not met anyone that actually played the whole game love it, but it just has this such an eye opening oh man, now I'm like in solving the same way, but it's in a different way. And, uh, it was just, was so I was only sad that it didn't last as long as,
ChrisYeah, I thought the game was transforming,
CameronI thought, I thought that, yeah, I thought the game was transforming and then same happens of the game. It happens like right at the end. Um, that was the only
Chrisonly disappointing part. Again without being spoilery. It's kind of like a crescendo It's where you're like, everything I've been doing has been building Yes. You know what I mean? For sure. And then you do it and it's super satisfying Yeah. You know, just so worth it
CameronI I definitely feel like if it's a, we got out type of thing, like I'm okay with that. I could have played several like that and so that's the one. The other one, uh, You guys were actually you were just having a casual and I happen to of the game nights, but I went home and actually watched the Sandman.
ChrisOh, nice. Oh boy. Okay.
CameronAnd It's a freaky show.
ChrisIt's,
CameronIt's real crazy. And you talked about the episode that happens in the
Christhe worst
CameronThat's the worst episode Not in a, not in a it wasn't well done
Chrisway.
Cameronin an it made me feel awful
Christhinking about
Cameronwas thinking about it for like the whole next two
Chrisdays. It freaked
Cameronme out but, but I, You
Chrisread it, but the comic is worse. The comic is worse. A hundred
CameronI, I don't think I could, I don't think I could handle
ChrisI was actually thinking when I saw it on the lineup and I was like, okay, they're going to do it. Cause that was my first question. When I knew they were doing are they going to do 24 hours which they call 24 seven in And I saw it and I was Then my next thought was how far are they
Camerongo? Yeah.
ChrisThey did not go all the way, and you should be glad.
CameronI don't want to, I don't want to know what else happens in, in the actual thing, but that episode really made think because it, it's a, It's saying
ChrisIt is definitely saying
Cameronsaying it's making a claim about the desires And I realized that we're talking about it, and maybe has seen it, you know, obviously he's the guy
ChrisJohn Dee,
CameronBut, but it, it, it, the thought that I had about it what it's suggesting is that if there were no lies, right, that if there were no lies, then these grotesque,
Chrissort of things. Their darkest
Cameronbase desire things. And, and the thing is that I understand the claim, but I think that because I think that if people were really, really, really honest, they would be Right. And so
ChrisPhilosophy Bill,
Cameronso all of this like rage entitlement and I'm just going to get mine sort of feels expresses as inhibitions about telling by of the Ruby. I think that what actually would happen, right? Like, all the
ChrisShe's very
Cameronthe direction that she goes, as she starts out more but then she goes in this direction that she actually later says, this isn't what I actually Right. won't say what she does,
Christhat
Cameronbut. But what she, but what she does as what she right? Because what she, because he even says, what you really want is to right? And I think that, I just think that all of, all of the examples, some of them might go but I don't Um, and maybe I'm, I'm have that perspective because my wife and year. And one of the things, one of the most valuable things that we've learned is you really you feel is what, makes one another. And so, yeah, so I, I think maybe because I have that real life is maybe that's why that an impact Oh man, saying it's making this claim. And I
ChrisWell, I think that's what's great about it. I want to get Bill's thoughts, but I'll say one more thing and I'm going to shut up so Bill can talk. But uh, I get excited about the Sandman. And I get excited about it not necessarily because I think everybody will enjoy it like you maybe you know But it does make you think
CameronI appreciated it for that reason, but I didn't
Chrisyou can't not watch an episode and it not make you at least think there's a there's a couple of But that one particular issue I think is in the first volume is the most thought Of all the What do you think
BillI love Neil Gaiman. I love, all of his he's really good making you think about uncomfortable
Chrisyou, know,
Billthat episode also I've, I've, I've kind of must have, like, suppressed it because I can't think of, remember all the things that happened, but I do remember walking away from it that way. I will say that, you know, from a philosophy point of view, contain multitudes, and so trying to, them all in like that is, you know, somewhat problematic to
ChrisI get what Cameron's saying too, so I, I say this, unashamedly, Cameron, I are both Christians and believers Neil Gaiman's thought about human nature align with, our worldview, but I can still read the Sandman and appreciate it getting me to think, in a certain way, even if I disagree with what he's trying convey about us because it's just like, I like running through that thought experiment, you know, even if it doesn't necessarily I can totally get why you wouldn't like it. I appreciate you at least
Cameronno no, I, the thing is that I'm, I'm actually saying I, I kind of enjoyed the show. I mean, I found myself, once I got, especially once I got past that the, tumult in my life. heart after, after watching it and feeling, you know, disturbed because they do a lot of disturbing stuff in that episode is that I found myself wanting to watch the show because And I think that so many of the other episodes do really like the guy that basically is like, won't die. I thought that was super, a super fascinating
Chrisa super fascinating episode. I really, I really liked that one and the things
Cameronread. Yeah. I really, I really liked that the, things that well. So I, I think that's what I was impressed about is I feel like we watch a lot um, and actually would. But when I do find like, oh, like this is saying that's like, okay, Right? And I, that's how I felt. And I, and Bill, I think when you guys were talking about it, that like, there were some shots that were like clearly to be sort of right out of the comic books. And I, I found myself like occasionally because it was like, man, the lighting and the framing and the, and the effects here. This like one page wide, like things on, from a big So I thought that was, there was one more that I wanted you know what? I
Chrisdrop that. Save it for next right. Yeah, yeah. I'll, I'll get mine real quick. I got a video game to talk about. This is a good one guys. this one I enjoyed quite a bit. so this one is called Rogue Legacy, specifically Rogue Legacy 2. I've played Rogue in the past and I just recently played its sequel. Have you guys heard of this
BillI Have It
ChrisIt is, it's roguelike, yeah. So, Rogue Legacy is a roguelike game where you're a knight, okay? And you are venturing into a castle, fighting evil That's really all you need to know about the plot.
BillDo You have a
ChrisYou do not have a dog, but what's interesting is you're going to die like you do in most roguelike You're gonna die many many just how they're But what happens is when you die, you don't come back You're dead. But the way the game continues is that your heirs Carry on after you die Okay, so it's your legacy, right? So what's kind of funny the game does a funny thing where Every one of the characters you played over the course of the game is like a portrait in your castle. From like, you know, like, you can go back to your great great great great great great grandfather who died trying to overtake this castle, right? So when you die, you have three heirs, male and female, that you can pick And they're of different classes. So you might have a barbarian heir, you might have a ranger heir, you have like a, a major So you can choose the class. But what's also really funny about this is they have different genetic traits. Okay. So for example, some of them, might be like very small in size, small for their size, and so they're smaller on the but they're like more maneuverable. Some of them have bad So the monsters are like blurry. But if you choose an air who has a negative trait, they generate more money It's like to compensate for this crappy trait. You get more So as you venture in, you get as far as you when you die and you choose your next air, everything passed So you get all the money, all the gyms, all the stuff that you got from your run. then you spend that. On your castle your kingdom And that's your skill tree. Okay, this is so cool So when you spend money and upgrade your castle your skill choose something that opens up like a new wing of your castle. grows. You're like building a new wing. It unlocks new classes. It unlocks new abilities. And this game really nails that feeling of, which I think is critical of I'm getting I'm getting stronger. I'm becoming more formidable. Some roguelikes like dead cells are very punishing and that they don't, um, you don't get like, I don't, you don't feel that progression as strongly as it's more like you're learning. You're like learning but you're not getting better. You're not getting more health,
Cameronand
Chrisright? Exactly. This one you're actually getting So you feel like you have a chance.
Cameronthe world
ChrisUh, no. So you can go back to an area where you're getting wrecked. previously and you can go back, 10 airs later and now you're much And so that's basically the game. Um, and I will say that nails that just one more feel, you know what I mean? Like there was one night, it was on a work
Cameronha ha ha
Chrisum, audibly, it was like one 30 in the I can't end on that. You know what I mean? I'm just going to do one more run and then you'll die and you're like, I'll just do one more run. And before you know Well, you know, like it just has that pull on you. You know what I mean?
CameronSo how long
Chrisit can be as short as five if you get into trouble or it can be, running really good, 30 it can make a it's just great. Yeah, play it on Switch. Super fun, super addictive. Just lots of puzzles, secrets, hidden areas. They have these rooms called Fairy Chests that give you really awesome upgrades, but they're like challenges. It's like you have to get to the end of this room without getting and there's like all these Spiky balls and axes swinging all over the place and so you're trying to like just get awesome loot Side scrolling platform. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah rogue legacy people check it out. It's pretty awesome.
BillThat's pretty awesome, Chris. That's a game that I might even like.
ChrisI think you would.
Billso, what's our drink
ChrisYeah, so I made a very strong probably too strong drink that I enjoy quite a bit called a Brandy Alexander. it's a very winy drink I think because it's got nutmeg think nutmeg Christmas, nothing has creams. It's white, you know, it's kinda got that It's one and a half ounces of cognac. An ounce of creme de cacao, one ounce of heavy cream. That's where that kind of white Shake that, strain it into a glass, and then garnish it with some nutmeg.
BillThat's really
ChrisYeah, the one thing So we used some creme de cacao that we got in Asheville. And I wish I had looked at it a little bit closer, because I think it had Yeah, which made this drink very strong. And when I, immediately when I tasted it, I I've had this if you make this as written, it's very Kind of like a fireplace Yeah, you're welcome.
Billyou guys ready to talk about some games?
ChrisOh, it's not game time yet.
CameronWe gotta do Christmas
ChrisChristmas Trivia. And, Christmas! We have a guest contestant tonight.
BillOh my goodness!
ChrisMy wife Talia.
BillAlright, awesome!
ChrisDramatic entry.
Billman. I'm
ChrisI'm trying to figure out how we're actually going to do this. I might just share my mic I think that's probably
Cameronit. Oh my
Billgoodness, are you guys to sing Christmas carols? for sure
Cameronnot. After a 22 episode hiatus, or probably more like a 52 episode. What episode was Talia remember what number? Episode 10.
BillSo how, how long have you been standing out there in the cold? Yeah, hours waiting
Chrisyeah. So Talia is back with us all the way back from episode 10. We are sharing a mic. So if it sounds a little bit weird, sorry about that. I'm going to try to move out of the way whenever she wants to speak, but, uh, welcome back, babe.
Cameronwelcome to the show, welcome to the show, Talia.
ChrisGlad to be here.
BillI remember that episode. Habitats. I was on that
Christhat episode. That's
CameronYou do know you're welcome to play board
ChrisOkay, so what we're going to do here, I'm going to go through the rules as we've done in prior years. Well, I'll say I invited Talia on because have Jason. Jason couldn't make it on this
Billis he playing against
Chrisshe is indeed. So we,
CameronTalia would do better than
Billanyway. Well,
Chrisgo.
Billman, I am, Al, I'm nervous.
ChrisYeah, we've got to have three players to play. It's way more fun that way. Um, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to read the question. you feel like you know the answer, say answer. that's like buzzing in. Now I'll give you a chance to I will keep score. And, uh, that's basically Cue the Christmassy music, All right. Question number one. cheat. She's right next to me. All right. In 1996, parents resorted to violence to obtain this red colored, cuddly, fuzzy their kids. Elmo!
BillOh, Tickle me, Elmo.
Chrisanswer! first. Okay, we're gonna give it to Bill. He cut in. He,
BillHe cut in, No, you can give it to Talia.
Cameroncorrect thing. He actually buzzed in correctly. We're gonna, we're gonna take away Talia's Christmas cocktail.
ChrisBill will fight you during trivia. He takes this very seriously. He does not mess
Billdoctor. Yeah.
Chrisbig out here. Okay, Which toy belongs to the following slogan? What walks downstairs alone or in pairs?
BillAnswer, oh.
ChrisThat is correct.
CameronI was going to go with bananas and pajamas.
Chriswith Bananas in Pajamas.
CameronBecause I don't really remember the song.
ChrisI remember that. Everyone wants to slinky. No, no,
Billdon't know. I have no idea. It's the only one I can do. You answer. That's the only toy I can think of that goes downstairs.
Chrisdownstairs. Okay, question This is the best selling Game Boy game of all time. With over 35 June what is Okay. That is incorrect. Answer. Yes. Tetris. That is correct. Oh, Tetris, one of the greatest selling games of all
Billtime. I knew
CameronI was sitting there going, what game would they probably include with every had had to be, had to be
Billthat's true.
Chrison that. It's
Billhad playing
Cameronyeah. With the, what was it, a two inch by two inch
Chrisa two inch
Cameronand you have to hold it at a very specific
BillOh, oh please, talk to me about low
Chrisit a very specific angle.
Billdon't
CameronI don't
Christo low tech. I know
BillI laughed at you
Chriswhat y'all talking about. What battery powered board called Bread Basket, Spare Ribs, and Water on the Knee?
BillOperation.
ChrisThat's correct.
CameronI actually did know that
Billsorry, normally I'm not.
ChrisThe neurons are firing for Bill tonight. He's
BillIt was good. It's the heavy cream.
ChrisAlright Talia, I think you're gonna get this one, are you ready? You got this. Alright. First sold in 1967. What toy has kids adorn a light panel with small colored
Billto
Christo produce different pictures and patterns? Light bright. That is correct.
BillGood job Talia. Good job.
ChrisI will say light bright is one of those toys that is like ingrained in I remember playing. With that thing, very
BillI I didn't have one, but certainly the commercials are ingrained on Saturday morning and stuff like that, which is a dead thing now, I guess. Saturday
Chriskids don't watch cartoons on Saturday morning anymore. And it's super sad. I used to get up early on like 7 a. m. to watch Scooby Doo and the Jetsons, because you had to be hardcore to do that. Like super
CameronEvery time I think about a light break, at least now in this phase of All I can think of is, that's a game and it's going to get all over the to be picking up 10, 000 little tiny pins. It's like anytime my kids get a puzzle, my kids puzzles, and stop giving my kids tiny blocks, because that's all I do now is pick up tiny blocks and puzzles.
BillDang, I have, uh, president of a whistle and drums for Owen in the
Camerondrums for
ChrisOwen Yeah. Alright, next question. What common, cuddly childhood toy did German seamstress Margaret Steiff its name from a president of the United States?
BillTeddy bear.
Christhat is correct. Bill's on a roll right now. Bill is on fire. we got a few more questions here though.
CameronEvery question starts in 1967.
Chrisready to get out of the
Cameronto get out of the
BillThe
ChrisThere's gonna be a chance for you to come back here. We gotta get out of Bill's era here. All right, here we go. The Ohio Art Toy Company purchased the rights to manufacture LeCron Magique, which means the magic writer, and renamed the product to what more commonly
BillI know what it is.
ChrisMagique.
BillIf I describe it, can I get it?
ChrisYes. The crayon. Take that out. I love that. I love that. Alright.
BillI know what it is. I
ChrisI'm calling time.
BillBut I'll tell you what it is. You use the little dials and you draw it. You shove it over your head and shake it above your head. It's called the oh!
Christhe Oh, oh. It's an Etch A Sketch.
BillEtch A Sketch. Oh, yeah. I got
CameronI was thinking, I was like, there's one in Toy Story. I should know this.
Chrisshould know this. Alright you two, here's your chance. Are you ready? Okay. water gun with manually pressurized air sold by Hasbro was invented by Lonnie Johnson in 1989?
CameronSuper
ChrisThat is correct. school, you know, we had the super soaker parties
Cameronall about the super
Chrishad a
BillMe either. My
Cameronfirst one though, I, I didn't get the super soaker 100. I got the super
Chrissuper soaker 200. Oh, right. Yeah, right.
Cameronand you could hold a whole lot more water than all your friends. And it had the nozzle on the end. If you change it, it changed the way that it's sprayed. You could just drench people
ChrisMan, I remember being in grade school, like, the super soaker like, so Everybody had to have
CameronDo kids have water fights still? Okay, good. Dude, we used to have water fights all the time. It would be like, it evolve throwing water balloons and just dumping buckets of water on each other. Like, it always starts with like tiny squirt guns and then by the end everyone's just spraying each other down with a hose.
ChrisAnd then you've got the sprinklers out and the slip and slides and then it's just mayhem at that
CameronI can't wait till my kids get old enough
ChrisIt was a boy Okay, next question. What is the name of the 1998 released by Tiger Electronics that resembles a hamster and an owl and spoke its own language?
Billit's the Gremlin.
ChrisOkay, too slow. Alright, gradually replaced, spoke its own language that was gradually replaced by
CameronAnswer. Yes. Furby.
Christhat
BillFurby! No. They talk to each other.
ChrisThis, for the record, I'm still salty about this. This is why I had penalty points in the past that Bill pitched fits about to discourage people from saying answer. And then trying to think of the answer.
BillI said it right away.
ChrisNo, you say answer and then you're
BillI
Cameronsaid it right
BillNo, I said the gremlin right away. And then you did. And you said, No, I said the wrong answer
ChrisAll right. Next question. Beanie babies. Come with heart what two letter first name? T. Y.
Cameronthe same time,
ChrisBut Did you know it? I'm the guest, so I get to answer it first. Yeah, I'm giving it to my wife.
Cameronokay, alright.
ChrisThat's T. Y. Or Ty.
CameronI'll take
ChrisTy. For Ty Warner, the
CameronNo I didn't know.
ChrisTy, you're making a comeback. Babyland General Hospital was the birthplace of what line of collectible dolls? That is correct.
BillGood job.
ChrisIncluded an individual birth That's all I wanted Alright, we have four questions left. Bill has four. Cameron has three. Talia has close here we go. Last four. is a good one. Name the electronic whose name is a blend of the Japanese words for egg and watch. You're gonna know it when These were a hit when we were in middle You might have been hold on.
CameronHold on, hold
ChrisOkay, I'm going to give you a second. Tamagotchi. That is correct. Tamagotchi.
CameronSorry, I didn't say answer, but no one else was answering,
ChrisAlright, Cameron. I've
Cameronone, but all my friends had one. It was like, it was like the equivalent of the phones now. Where they just never stop looking at them. Yes,
Chrisit was an obsession. For sure.
BillIsn't that like your pet?
Chrisa pet.
Billa pet,
Christaking
Billdidn't say pet in the question?
Chrisin your pocket. no. I called it a toy. Are you critiquing
BillNo, no, no. I would have gotten it. I was thinking Tamagotchi with them. It's like, well, no, Tamagotchi is not it because you didn't say the pet part. So anyway.
ChrisI don't appreciate that. Alright, next question. What is the name of the gel filled, latex, rubber action figure made by Hasbro who can be elongated from 15 inches to almost 5 feet?
CameronStretch
ChrisThat is correct.
CameronHad one of those.
ChrisCameron takes the lead.
CameronThey have very gooey syrup like stuff real
Chrisreally weird toys. I had one
CameronThe reason that they say up to 5 feet is because they do them. Every kid
Chriskid has tested this.
Cameronthis.
Chriskid's tested
CameronStretch Armstrong is real gooey
ChrisAlright, penultimate question. What toy with an onomatopoeic name First sold in the a tube, colored straws, and marbles. gasping as if she knows the answer. table.
Billthough. I can picture you pulled them, pull them out and they
Chris2, The answer is Kerplunk.
CameronI definitely
Chrisplayed Kerplunk? Really? Well, that's a fun game.
Cameronit's not on
Chrisnot on It
Cameronis
ChrisAlright, this is the last question. Cameron is in the lead. Bill, you're in second. You can tie. Ty, you're honor But you can do it, I believe in you. happen. I know. It was fun. Alright, last question. What toy ball What toy ball? Made of about rubber his kids Rubbery filamentous
CameronI answer. Yes. Is that called a coosh
ChrisIt's a Kosh ball. Oh,
CameronBecause I was like, how, what would make it, what would make it easier to, but it is easier to catch because it has all of those, uh, things. it doesn't bounce
Billthe The balls have the
ChrisYeah. They have those Meant a cutback
CameronI could see it being like fidget Man, I can't remember. I pulled that one out of my head from the 90s.
Chrismy head from the nineties. Well, well, Bill, like most of the board games we played, you got
BillOh, man, you've lost
Cameronanalogy, it's
Christhen he totally
CameronThat analogy breaks down because I'm normally last in all the board games that we play.
Chrisgetting, late. So congratulations, Cameron. Thanks for playing bill. Talia, thanks for coming out.
CameronThanks
ChrisGlad I could
Cameronfor joining us.
ChrisYeah. Thanks again listeners for um, understanding that Talia and I were sharing a mic there. So if she sounded like she was far away, we apologize. But I thought it would just be fun to bring her in and have three people going at it.
BillIt's way funner than just having
Chris100%. No doubt. I'm lame.
CameronMerry Christmas, Talia.
BillWell, that was awesome fun, Chris.
ChrisThat was that was, Came down to it, I think there was only one question that didn't get an answer.
CameronI appreciated
ChrisYeah.
Cameronhad a fair game knowing the answers.
ChrisI tried to move it around a little
CameronYeah,
Chrisbut I thought, I was trying to think what to do. 'cause we've done a few of these now and I was like, toys, you know, like Christmas
CameronIt was well done.
BillI'm kicking myself for Etch a Sketch.
Chrisgod, never was good at
Cameronwas one of those ones that I was surprisingly good at, but like, okay, I spent all this time. And now enjoy it I can't erase it. I can't save it. well, should we review these games? Sweet stocking stuffers You roll the dice and write the result on the notepad. That's all. And yet, Tetrix develops an unexpected depth and excitement. Because your fellow players use the exact same dice But who fits the geometric shapes more cleverly into their grid? Do you have the edge with your tactics? It remains exciting right up until the last
ChrisNice!
CameronDid you guys like my German?
ChrisThank you Google
CameronTranslate. Yeah.
ChrisWhat an amazing tool.
CameronIncredible, yeah.
Billwas a straight translation
CameronThe direct translation with
ChrisTranslate. Right off the back of the box. impressive. Mosaics, also known as Tetrix. That's actually what my copy is called, but if you search it on BGG you will find it as Mosaics. With an X. Yes. M O S A I X Published in 2009 Schmidt Spila At the time of this recording it's BGG ranking is 5037 Designer of this game is Christoph Tisch his only design Or only notable design. He's got a couple of others that Um, I would like to point out that this game was a gym minor recommendation on our BGG guild on our gym minor recommendation list that you can find on our BGG guild. Boone, Daryl Boone of, board gyms on YouTube recommended, this game was a good time to do it. Cause this game definitely would It's very small, and decided to review it. It has
Camerondid a lot of his,
ChrisEarlier, Alright, brief rule summary for Mosaics. And this will be pretty brief. Mosaics is a roll and write geometry puzzle where the players are trying to fit groups of shapes into a tight 7x7 grid. At the start of the game, each player will receive a sheet of Mosaics. showing a 7x7 grid of squares with one of the squares randomly filled in a circle, a triangle, or a square. In addition to the sheets, the players will also share four six sided dice. So it's important to note that on two of the sides are triangle, two of the sides show a circle, and then two of the sides show Okay? All the dice look The active player will roll these dice one time and then arrange them however they they cannot change the facing of any rolled dice. So let's say I rolled two circles, a triangle and a square. I can take those four dice and I can put them in any Tetris type shape that I wanted. So I can make like a straight line. in a square. I can make like an L shape or a T shape, however you want. You can organize those dice in whatever way you want, you just can't change the facing they're rolled. Once the dice are set, All players, not just the player that rolled, but all players will then take that arrangement of symbols and fit it somewhere into their 7x7 grid. So it's important to understand that you can rotate these things 90 degrees to get them to fit into you have to place, if you're legally able to place, you can't pass. And then one very important rule that adds some subtlety to the game is that you can place the structure partially off of, quote unquote, the board. So a very simple example would be, let's say that I lined all four of my dice up in a straight line. But I don't want to use all four of those dice, I just want to use two of I can use two of the dice on the end, and then have the other two going off of the board, or outside of the grid, and then that will allow me just to ignore those can position the structure in such a way that you can omit dice if you don't want Okay? those. Correct, yeah. You're tossing those out of the game. Which is important, also from a strategy Player will continue on this way until either one player has completely filled in their board, or they cannot make a legal move with the arranged dice. Then scoring, as Cameron just mentioned, will take place. The way this game scores is very straightforward. For each shape, circles, squares, and triangles, you will look at each individual group of that symbol that you have. And you will score it if that group has at least five symbols in So if I had a grouping of circles that was just three circles, that would not But let's just say, for example, I had a group of circles that was five circles, and then I had another group that had seven That's 2 groups, so for circles that would be 2 times the total number of circles between both of those groups. So that would be 2 times 12, because there were 7 in So I would get 24 You do that for all the shapes, total your score, whoever has the most points wins the game. And that's how you play Mosaics.
CameronWe probably could have played of time.
ChrisIt's pretty quick, quick playing game filler style for sure. So we've played a few Rollin Wrights on the podcast. We've played many outside of the podcast. It's a very popular So, how do you think, this Rollin Wright compares to others that you've played? does it remind you of anything? What kind of things did you like about this particular implementation of the Rollin Wright genre?
CameronI think what's, uh, what's kind of cool about this is that it can applied Games varying complexity. So I would say this one falls simplistic, end of that
ChrisCorrect. And,
CameronCorrect. Well, and I mean, in terms the, actions that you take the thought I can think there are, branches consider
Chrisas
CameronUm, but because it's on the simpler of complexity, The game plays
ChrisWhich
Cameronand definitely nice kind of
BillI will say, it. reminded me a lot of cartographers you flip over a card, you have a certain shape that you got to fit in your board
ChrisYou have to goal.
BillUh, complicated, uh, uh, I appreciated puzzle the fact that, uh, creating the shape dice know, really you want to fit your board ever goes on, people who are, shaping their own dice for their board are creating really weird, weird conditions for you.
ChrisAnd
BillExactly. And so, uh, and you don't care about theirs. And as a matter of fact, you the thing that is absolutely worse to them. Um, and it's nice that, you know, three players, four players, or five players did every once in a while, you would get to, shape it to something that kind of I love that.
ChrisI thought they did a good of that. First, you have the choice of how am I going to organize these dice, of which there are numerous permutations, numerous permutations depend on how you order them,
CameronBecause you can mirror it,
ChrisSo you've got different shapes, but then how do you arrange the shapes within that Tetris shape, right? I mean, we're talking numerous Then add on to that the myriad different ways you can incorporate that into your seven by seven not to mention the fact. That you have the option of playing part of the structure off of the grid.
CameronYeah!
ChrisSo for, you know, and Bill, you talk about this a lot, death to complexity ratio, Cameron, I totally agree with you. Game is super simple to learn. You can play it with kids. I played it with my kids numerous times. There is a lot to think about I, this game is very for such a simple rule set. I was really impressed because they're just so. Many ways you can go to try to get your spatial puzzle to It really impressed
BillYeah, and I love that make that make you think It's Very
ChrisI liked
CameronYeah. I, I was just thinking about trying to clarify my initial statement what I meant Yeah. Is definitely not, that this game is easy but that. there's just not that things happening. Like, there's one
Christhere's one thing to focus on. It's closer
Cameronto an abstract sense that, It's like, who can do this one And there, and I did like that what works great for and how can I get everyone else to smack their forehead and go, no, just not that way. You know?
Chrisget everyone else to their forehead go, just not right away, you know? But if you overuse you can screw yourself because every time you throw away a die, you're getting behind in tempo, right? So you might get to the end of the game where if you passed on dice too much by putting them off your board, where you have a lot of empty spaces and somebody is filled, there's, and that can cost you the game, right? So it's nice. They have
Camerona
ChrisCorrect.
BillYeah. Yeah. Truly. it is so hard to listen to this audibly and put all these things in your head, but really as the game progresses, like you have X's and O's and diamonds, and you're trying to protect all three of those different islands of those shapes on
Chrisglad, yeah, elaborate, yeah.
Billas, as you're putting them out there. And so when you get these shapes, you don't want one X island that you have accidentally bumping into a merge with another X island so that that is there, or you don't necessarily want it to be too big. I mean, you really, and if you're playing it optimally, you want to have like three X islands and three,
ChrisThat are all like size 5
Billall size five is, is the perfect way to play this game, which you can never do, but when
Chrisyou can.
Billwell, maybe if, if things work out, right.
Chrisdid it.
BillYeah, but I'm sure you can't do that every
ChrisBut you're making a good point in that part of the challenge of is in knowing that, how do I put my shapes into the grid where I don't inadvertently merge? Which is really hard to figure out that spatial, especially when a lot of your board is empty. You've got a lot of freedom, but then you also have to be thinking like, how Several steps ahead. Like, if I put this here, am I going to have to fuse Right.
Billinclination is to say let me grow this place over here to five and then I'll move over here to do this one five and I'm gonna go over here move this one to five and oftentimes I thought that's the wrong way to
ChrisYeah. the dice don't like that.
Billright exactly you need to like maybe place seeds of things over there and just trust in the future that it's gonna happen which is just really weird and abstract so it is it's very much a fuzzy logic kind of game
Chrisyou didn't I'll mention one thing while we're thinking. I think it's a good sign, interesting sign that we're having to think so hard. I'll mention this as a caveat. This didn't bother me, but you have to be aware there's a phenomenon that can occur in this game. I mentioned in the rules that you can rotate structures 90 to fit them in your board and that's very legal, but there are some structures like the L that you can inadvertently mirror image that. That is not legal where it's a mirror image of it and people that have a harder time with spatial things may accidentally do that and then feel bad or get frustrated because they keep mirror because. their brain struggles with that kind of spatial And so I would just throw that out there as a caveat people might get frustrated to flip the structure instead of rotate it. So you just need to be aware of
BillI will say I had difficulty you're taking the stair steps or it upside down your head and you're trying to
CameronI think that one of the things that great about this game is that you can play it really quickly. the temptation playing it. and I, my feeling about it is because especially if you're I do when I come to game night, uh, is that you're just like, okay, I have to be like really on my game I don't want to keep doing that like a ton. But maybe that's just where I'm at in life, I guess.
Chrisrolled out like three in a row,
CameronYeah. And so I, I think I started feeling some uh, of like trying to do that, like over and over
ChrisAlright. Final thoughts time. Bill,
Billme?
Chriskick us off.
BillWell, I thought this was an awesome filler game and a great stocking it would absolutely it's also so simple to teach. you caught that to grasp you're trying to at the table. Uh, and, Awesome for all ages. I mean, I'm sure all your
Chrisgame. Um,
Billto me, this is an awesome this is kind of a Hidden For me, I find our scale difficult because, you know, when you have a game like this that I think is so awesome, it's so hard to compare with something like Medina or something like that. Because this is, this is meant to be what it's meant to be, right? And so it is, it's a, it's a filler game. It's super short, the rules are so tight and it's elegant. It's, it feels weird for me to give us a high score because it's, it's so simple, but I'm going to give it a five because what it's meant to be is, is a short filler game and, it's supposed to exercise your spatial abilities uh, play just does that I mean, I, I loved it
Chrisgonna
CameronCool. Yeah. So, for me, I also really enjoyed this I might not give it quite as high of marks just because of, I think, thing. But, you know, one of the things that we try to do on this show is kind of evaluate And I certainly try not judge wish they would be. And I think this one, like, is trying to be this kind of quick, you know, quick teach quick get in quick get out. a travel bag when pull it out and And challenging Um, and that's, important thing, there's no theme here, so I
ChrisNo, not at all.
Cameronthat. but yeah, I enjoyed it. I don't really have more thoughts than that. I'm going it. There you go.
Chrisa four. Uh, I'd play it right now if you want to. The game really tasks you with, there really are no bad roles in this game. There are roles where, especially in the game, you really want to roll a shape. So you could say, oh, I got unlucky with my die roll. But really what the game is tasking you is with just trying to figure out, on this roll, how can I do the best with what I am And everyone is feeling that pain
CameronBut you have so many
Christhat's what's so great about it, right? The game never ceased to amaze me. The more and more I played it, How much more forward thinking I was thinking, obviously not knowing what I was going to roll, but just trying to think in my head, how this mosaic going to form, right? What am I going to try to put over here? What am I going to try to put over here? And like Bill said, fuzzy logic in that out was just really, Not to mention I played this game with my kids like probably and it was really awesome. to play competitively with them and watch them learn. Like I said, knocks crap out of me one game. Cause he just got a lot better. He just learned,
Cameronhe's your, he's your chess
ChrisYeah. Yeah. He's just really good at So I'm going to give this game a five also. I think this game is excellent. happy to have it. for a filler, pretty
CameronAll right.
Billbe able to trade that for Igor,
Chrisfor an iGore, huh?
Cameronspeaking of which, if folks out there want to pick it up and give it a shot, where can folks Get It
Christhere want to pick up and give it shot, where can folks get it? This game is listed as getting a a re theme called Gemstone Caverns. Where the shapes are replaced like, by different gems of different colors. But there's not a lot of posts about it right now, so it's kind of one of those things I think was announced that it was coming, but now it's just kind of gotten quiet.
Cameronsince we, uh, since we'd like it so much. Should we reach out to
ChrisDude, that would
CameronIt'll be the 2025 hidden gems reprint
Chrisknow, there's like, the Dice Tower Essentials. We can do, like, the Hidden Gems Essentials, you know?
CameronYou get Haggis, anything that is
ChrisI would put 100%. But yeah, um, that's pretty much it
CameronSweet.
Billwill say there's, there's one, a noble knight, and I have it in my shopping
Chrisnow. Oh boy. Bill, don't do that to our listeners.
CameronBill's gonna snipe it.
Chrisjust kidding, Bill. You better act fast, people. Alright, those are our thoughts on mosaics.
CameronYou are garbage collectors whose task is to place recycled goods in their proper waste disposal facility. But you have to watch how much garbage you carry or you will overload your truck and then have to dump the excess materials Not a good thing if you want to become the only authorized garbage collector in the The
Chrissorry, I
Billright, you're the automated response on, uh, like some electronic car in some movie, what
CameronI'm sorry, I didn't understand that.
Billit's our AI overlord in the room with us.
ChrisThat's awesome. Good job Cameron. Alright, R. E. C. O. Published in 2003 by Amigo and Z Man Games. At the time of this recording it's BGG ranking is 2, 570. Designer of this game Susumu Kawasaki. This person has designed Traitors of Osaka.
BillOh, that's
ChrisWhich we reviewed on the podcast and also another game I really want to try that I've heard about before called it's either Robatory or Robotory I'm not really quite sure how you pronounce it but I've heard people talk about it and This is a very special review podcast remember a few episodes back We changed our tiers and we had mentioned that our gold miner tier, which is kind of like our middle intermediary Patrion tier, which is 5. head. Go to Patrion and check it out.
Cameronand ten.
ChrisYeah. 5. You get a guaranteed review for the podcast and that's what this one is. So, and this one is very special is an awesome So, Evan, goes by the handle Evan Diesel, um, who's very active on our Discord, and I also want to plug his content, he has a pretty Instagram, and particularly on YouTube, he has a YouTube channel his family, Grayson and Missy, where they talk about board games, and he has a very eclectic, Kind of a taste very similar to ours. He plays a lot of the newer stuff But he also has an appreciation for the old stuff like we do and a lot of the Unusual weird games that we talk about
Billour Echo's really
ChrisUh, yeah 2003
Billyeah, Yeah, I
ChrisYeah uh, evan also, uh reps our merch Which we really appreciate on his channel sometimes and at cons. So evan Thank you for being an awesome listener and supporting us. And please check out Evan's stuff on YouTube. Also, I want to mention if you are a gold miner, email us hidden Jim's board game podcast at gmail. com. And tell us what game you want us to review.
CameronYeah, we can't do your review if you don't let us,
Chrisyou don't tell us, we can't do it. So if you want to get a shout out and get a game reviewed, please email us. We'll add it to the spreadsheet and we'll get you in there. Okay.
CameronWoo! Also thanks to our
Christhanks
Cameroncom slash Podcast.
Billout in
ChrisYeah. Talk on the All right. Brief rule summary for our echo. Our Echo is a card game where the players are attempting to place sets of recycling cards onto one of four different recycling factories in order to score points. The card deck in ArtEcho is made up of 88 cards in four colors. So there are 22 cards per suit, with 19 of those cards having a value of one and three of those cards having a value of two. And these different colors are different recycling cans and paper The four factory cards are placed face up in the center of the playing area and each factory has a unique color, which corresponds with one of the in the card deck. On top of each factory a stack of victory point chips, with each chip matching the color of the factory. And again, this stack of chips has a very specific order and it's the same for all four factories. 0, 1, minus 2, 4 5. Okay? Each player draws three cards from the deck and play begins. On a player's turn, they must play one or more recycling cards above factory to play blue recycling cards, you play above the blue factory. Okay. So let me explain what this looks When you're playing cards to a factory, you can play as many cards as you want to that factory. As long as you have that many colored cards in So if I have one blue card, I can play one blue card above the blue factory. If I have two blue cards, I can play one, or I can play two. If I have five blue cards, I can play all five above the factory. why are we doing this? Well, If the total sum value of the cards above the factory four or greater, you get to take the top chip off of the victory point stack for that factory and put it in It's important to understand that cards carry over between players. So if I play two cards to the blue factory, remember you need four to take the chip, those two blue cards will stay there Until somebody exceeds the number four and then they all get Okay, Once the cards are played, the player will then take any cards that are present below the factory that they played to. So what determines what cards are present below a factory? Well, let's go back to my prior example. Let's say I play two blue cards to the blue factory. Not enough to take the victory point chip. Once I do that, I will then take the cards that were below the factory and then new cards will get added equal to the number of symbols played to the factory plus So since I played two blue cards, I will add two plus one, three cards at random below the blue factory. Okay? That's how it works. And that's important. It's not trivial. Alright? Once the player has taken their cards from below the recycling factory and added them to their hand, they must check their hand size against the hand limit. If the player has more than five cards in dump cards from again have a hand size of five. These cards are played face down in front of the player, and at the end of the game, each card that a player had to dump will result in one negative point.
BillThis dumping trash, by the way. We're like trying to re
ChrisYeah, instead of recycling, you are illegally dumping and harming the environment. What a jerk, which is why you're getting negative Play will continue on in this way until one player has taken the bottom most five from one of the four recycling factory stacks. Play then immediately ends and the players total their So scoring really quickly. You score points equal to the face value of the victory point chips that you took. However, it's important to note that for each color. You only score points for those chips if you have at least two chips of that color. So, for example, if I had the yellow five victory point chip, and that's the only yellow chip I had, that's no You need at least two of a color for it to So, it's your victory point chips minus one point for any cards that you dumped. And then there's one little special non dumping bonus. If you never dumped of the whole game, you will get points depending on player account for every other player who did taking So they don't say that over and over again. So it sounds kind of funny. All right. And that's how you play our echo. All right. So if you listen to the rules, you may not have, But if you listen to the rules, I hope you appreciate it. This is kind of a weird game. This is a weird game. I'm there. It's unusual. This falls in the unusual category for, I've never played a game it's just a weird take on card play, which makes sense. This is why we did an Asian designers because they just think differently. I just have. neat you know what I mean? So I'm glad we played this And there's a lot of different ways we could go here, but I think where I want to start is one of the more interesting decisions this game, I And so just to reiterate, if your hand size ever exceeds five, You must dump cards, eliminates your opportunity for the bonus a negative point for every time you So you may be thinking to yourself, well, avoid that at all costs. And you might, but maybe not. And that's just my thoughts. I don't know. And that's kind of where I want to start. What did you guys think about the strategy behind do I dump? Do I not dump? Managing your hand size and your hand limit? What did you think.
BillSo I'm gonna start. by thanking Evan for this game because I do feel like from Hidden Jim's point of view and like playing cards games like this, this is so unusual and so cool. And I mean, I love the rule set for it. And I I always get excited and find it really fun when I play a game like this. And so I really appreciate the I think, you know, that managing that, that five card count really is kind of the thing. Gets at the soul of the game because when, when you're looking at the cards there, you're wanting to pick up a chip. There are cards that are out there to being displayed. Then when you pull those into your hand, that leads you to the next play that you're going to play But all of it, is having you do the calculus of when I play am I going to have a low card count once I've done it? Cause you're, you're really, you're trying to get a bunch of cards of the same, color to play at once so that you can basically empty out your hand. If you possibly can, it would be the perfect way to do it. And then pick up a chip and then almost starting from scratch again. Um, yeah. That's not quite true, because you need cards in your hand to go to the next step, so you're really looking down to the next step, so it is this really, fun, interesting, weird, tightrope that you're walking, a, it's a fascinating puzzle as you're looking
Chrisas you move along. It's a, fascinating puzzle you're looking at it. That was not true. We had people never dump the whole game and lose. Right?
BillWe had a theory at the beginning that there was impossible not to dump. and
Christhat was the other thing. We were like, how The first time we played this we were dumping like crazy because we sucked. And we were like, how do you not ever dump in
Cameronran it back And then I did it
ChrisAnd then you did it, right? And you did win that game without dumping. But then we played another game where I never dumped and I did not Which, it was good to see Because that means that's not one dimensional. That's not like King, right? it's good to not dump, but there
Cameronalso a needle you can't thread every time. I mean,
ChrisWell, sometimes it's impossible,
Cameronthere were times where it was like, I really, really don't want to dump, but I have a bunch of cards in my hand that I can't play to get rid of them. And also I can only play and pick up three
ChrisBut yeah, I agree. But I guess, I think the point I'm making is, is that. There are times in this game where you could play somewhere mm-hmm And kind of spin your wheels a little bit and not have to dump, but you're not making progress. Right. Or you could dump, get a chip and then pick up some more cards that might help you. And that's I think, probably the main decision point in this game is like, when do I do And so it was like an puzzle
CameronI definitely think that like, even beyond sort of that balancing
Chrislike I think
CameronOne of the main things that you're looking to do where you place and what chip you pick up is almost less what cards are you getting out of your hand? And hand? Because what you want to try to try to establish and it's very is a rhythm where you're dumping a big you a chip picking up different set Correct. Right. Where there's some, something that's, that you're picking up that's stacking any color in your hand.
BillI think as you play this game, you're, trying to get that perfect thing, right? let's say there's two on blue now. And you have a bunch of cards in your hand. Your perfect thing would be like to lay down three or four, eat something above four to pick, pick that up, because you want to have net less cards after you pick that up. what did you guys feel about the minus two being in the stack of,
Chrisyeah, this is a good thing
Billthe Cass of you, feel like it from a design decision point a good idea, bad idea
ChrisYeah, I, I have thoughts on this. I actually had this in my cons and I'll explain why. I could see how I think different people would have different It's a mild con, I get what they're trying designer was trying to do by incorporating this minus two is kind of like a, point of contention, you know, you're rolling picking up chips, picking up chips, and now you have to stop, right? And like, how are you going to adjust to that thing that you don't necessarily want to get? I get the idea behind but in execution, don't feel like it played. Good. The way I would like or I didn't enjoy the way it played out because it felt like that Once we got to that point all the stacks kind of get to minus two at kind of the same time and so car just kind of Build up on them until the damn breaks and somebody just has to take it,
Cameronrequires, like, kind of everybody
ChrisSo everybody is like is like stalling stalling stalling and Again, I get the point of it But I just don't know if I found that to be enjoyable. You know what I mean? It's just kind of like I'm playing avoidance now. Now it's true that I could say, well, I can take this yellow minus two because it's the only that I have. So it won't lose me any points. They don't have any other yellow chips and that's fine. That's a strategic point, I guess. But now I've just created a release valve, right? Where yellow is now safe to play on, right? So I don't know.
BillI love that to me it's, fantastic design choice and I certainly wouldn't have thought of it and I think it's an interesting design point. I totally get the fact that breaks for all of us, but it is also a, okay, I know these are coming. How do I manage my cards so I can be the one who lasts the longest so I don't
Chrisyeah, but you can't plan for that
BillWell, you kind of can, because you can,
Chriscannot you don't know how many cards people are going to play on each
BillOh, you, you don't, but you also know that I could take up this four stack and get points right now, but I'll have a bunch of cards in my hand, uh, versus I'm going to forego picking up a point this time and pick up this one stack and, and just wait. And I'll only have two cards in And Can I wait it out longer than somebody else? Or I'm going to pick up the stack where I see has multiple plays on like two different areas that I can. Have two more turns where I'm not going to pick up or something like that
Chriswhere I'm not going to pick up or something
BillOh true, it's an odds
ChrisOh, true.
Billknow, but you can play the odds, right?
Chriscan play the odds. I
Billis a
CameronI don't think that it's about having control. I think, the reason that it, because it interesting, dynamics at the table, right? Because the other thing that happens is once the two is gone, Then it becomes, okay, well, who's going to get the right? Because you can have a situation where there's someone who doesn't have any of that color. It's like they, they could become a risk to score nine points. I think what it comes down to
Chrislike, that Yeah. And I think that's the thing. Didn't do anything for me. I get what y'all are saying, but I
Billdo you think It would be a better game if you just raced to the 5?
Chriswell, I think maybe instead of making a minus two, why not? I could hear Chris well, I mean, pinnacle of the game
BillI could hear Chris saying, well, I mean, the pinnacle of the game was in the middle. Why do I even care about going I already know who's won the game at
Christell me what I think, Bill. I don't like your sass right now. You're getting a little bit of toot in
Billnow. Tongo Bonguy, were you here for that review?
Chriscan tell you like this game and that's great.
Billno. No, no. Not necessarily
Chrisjust, like I said, I mean that's what happened every game. I get it. But
CameronYou're saying where it went to, to, to,
Chrisyeah, minus two, minus two, minus two, minus two, Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill. And then somebody like has to take one. Ah, you got it. You know, I don't know. I just don't see that to be. sounds
Cameronit sounds like what you dislike about it and tell me if I'm wrong is inevitability. that
ChrisFrom Wrong is
Camerongoing ahead And just taking
Chrisit seems. ahead and just taking it. Isn't necessarily a great play either because that might even rush the end of the game, right? Like I don't know. It's just it's a weird thing. We probably need to move on Didn't do anything I'm glad y'all liked it
BillOh, is there any other dislikes?
ChrisYeah, i'm gonna mention one more thing real quick, Because I have I just couldn't feeling of, well, I think we've done a good job of explaining that there are decision points in this game. I'm not denying that. I'm not denying it. Okay? It did feel like on most it seemed like there was an obvious play, if that's fair. try to be fair. And so, a lot of the game, I would say 80 percent of the I kind of felt like it was almost playing me, you know, I was making the most sensical play. The other options just didn't make any sense like at all. And I was like, this is the only thing that really makes sense here. I'm not saying there's not nuance I feel like most of the time. seemed like there was an obvious play and the reason I came to that conclusion, why I think I can justify that is just how kind of all over So for example, yes, we played one game. Bill beat us badly. The first game we played the next game, bill got crushed. Did bill just suddenly forget how to play our echo? I don't think I think was just how the cards I never won this game one time amongst us, but I played it on you Kata. It's on you Kata and I played it with experienced players who had numerous plays. I killed in that one game. And so I'm not sure that was because I played really well. I think it's just kind of how the cards came And so I just couldn't get away from that feeling of that happening
Cameronit's less, less, and I'm this happen need to play. that I get. Okay, board now. Here are the cards in my hand. This is the obvious.
Christhe state of here are the cards in my hand, this is the obvious thing to do. You think about it for a minute and you're like, I think this is the best course of action. And that's I
Billin, in final thoughts.
ChrisI mean, I could, do y'all want to say any more to that? I can just
BillI can put it in my
ChrisOkay. Okay. All right. I'll just transition. So final thoughts, this is a good segue into what I was going to say. This game reminds me a lot of a game called six I don't think you've played it. Cameron, you've
Cameronplayed it. I have It
ChrisOkay, you have it. Yeah. Okay. It plays very differently But the reason why it reminds me of Six Nymphed is I played Six Nymphed a lot too, and I started to come to the conclusion in that that once you learn it and start to figure it out, you learn what good play is, and then the deck just kind of decides if you're going to And that's kind of how I started to feel in Now, having said that, I will say I didn't not enjoy playing this Like when we were playing it, I was much like six ninth, right? Like, it's kind of just fun to see how it shakes out. But for me personally, I like to have a little bit more agency And so because of that, much like with six ninth, I ended up getting rid of pains me to say because I think it's a clever interesting game and Evan. I think you're awesome. You're awesome. You and your family are great, but I gotta be true to myself Giving this game a three It was just okay for I wanted to like it The game is playing
BillNo, no, well, alright, I'm gonna read it from my thing, just So, I marveled at the design And when I look at a game like this and the way that it plays and such new ideas, I just thought it I think it's pretty cool and it's simplicity because of what you but I also think that's a double edged sword because I think at times your decision space Uh, however, there are moments when you get decide if the points you're going to pick up are worth the cards you're going to get in your And that, that
Chrisbiggest decision in
Billbiggest decision in the game. And that's, that's the fun part. Here's where I struggle, where, well, what I struggle with is if the game has legs, because of that, the simplicity of that, how long does that struggle or that decision space last, because there were lots of games where, like you're saying, it was obvious what I should do. and sometimes almost the whole game, the game that I lost really badly. I ended up in that loop that you're talking about, uh, I would play a blue card down to pick up a blue card and it was just a single card loop. And I just, it was, it was just painful. But I do think there's strategy in this game. So it is, it is so interesting, the whole double edged sword like this. I mean, it's great that it's, such a short game. I think it's a great game to have on your shelf, because it's like, you pull it out, and people are like, well, I've never seen a game like this. This is pretty darn, darn cool. Easy to teach, uh, and, and people will just think it's cool, I think, because of, of its design. But Chris, I'm, I have to kind of come in with you. I hate to agree with Chris on a game,
Chrisgoing to
BillI'm going to give it a three as
Chris3 as
BillYeah, but I give it a three as well. I mean, I think it's, I mean, again, I I'm so conflicted because I think it's such a cool game and for a game that I admire for its designs, as much as I admire this one for, it's hard for me to give it that three, but it, it, it, it comes down to that decision anyway, but thanks Evan. I feel better for you having recommended
ChrisI think between Bill and I we can both say it's
BillAbsolutely. And I think it's worth having in your collection in a way, because especially if you're just pulling it out to show people you know, it's,
Chrisof people love six dimps I'm just kind of on it, but it's a loved game. And again, it reminds
CameronI think where I would go with, my final is that I, I think I hear what you guys are saying in limited decision space. because I think it's true. you don't have like one of the things that we didn't talk about is that we sort of have been talking about your turn as, as if we're going to assume that every time you're so incentivized because of this hand limit thing only ever going to play all turn and that this this sort of automatic thing and like the reality is that that's not true because based on what's underneath it, you may want to go. Okay. Well, I'm going to pick up. a green one, and then I'm, a double pick up. So play one of my greens to pick these other ones up. And now I'll have four I'll go right back down. And then, and so that, I think that's where
ChrisYeah,
CameronIt's where could I rhythm. And for me, I enjoyed that. I had a lot of fun with it. I do agree with Bill as well, in unique and, I had a unique sort of experience with it in terms of series of plays. This is like the first time in a long time I've actually played it And, my experience with it was Um, the first time I felt like I had no clue, I felt like I was what you guys are My second two, I won the second one. And my third play, I felt competent. I felt like I was Choosing my own destiny maybe I'm a bit delusional about
Chrisit
Cameronsuccessive plays, I may whether I feel that I have that amount of but for me, I actually enjoyed this I, I liked getting to play it as many times as I did. and I would play it again. So I'm, I'm actually
BillYeah. I'd love to have this.
Christo your guns.
BillRight, right. I'd have this thing come on my collection. people like it. Would this be a fair trade for i cord?
Cameronit Would this fair trade for iPhone? Yeah.
ChrisAlright, well. Where can we get it? So unfortunately, this game's a little older. Um, again, 2003, so there are no copies available at Noble Knight, but there are 12 copies on the BGG you can still get All right. Well, I think that is it. Um, those are our thoughts on our echo.
CameronBuild a thriving civilization. In under an hour. Collect goods. Assign workers. To build cities and and erect Advance your civilization through cultural and scientific developments. But don't forget to harvest enough food to feed your growing population. Grab those dice and roll through the in this fast paced, addictive, and strategic game.
ChrisYes.
Billgood job as always cameron we're so glad you're here
Cameronone more David Attenborough for
ChrisI love it. Got to, you got to reuse the good All right. Roll through the ages, the bronze published in 2008 by Eagle Griffin the time of this recording, it's BGG in the top thousand. I will say I was conflicted about I went back and forth in my own mind about whether we should review it Because when I first got into the hobby this game was talked about a lot like a lot and I would Imagine that most of the people listening to us right now who have been in the hobby for a while know this game and may Have played
Billthis one or the big board
ChrisThis yeah
Cameronwhich category forgotten?
Christhink so just because as time has passed I mean, that was 2008, right? mean, it was a long time ago, right? it's kind of fallen off the radar. And so I decided to So we're going to review it. Designer, this game, Matt Leacock, designer of pandemic
CameronOkay.
Chrismany other games, lots of legacy games, lots of cooperative games, Thunderbirds, but definitely most known for pandemic. All right, brief rule summary for Roll Through the Ages. This will be pretty brief. Roll Through the Ages is a Yahtzee style dice rolling, rollin right, civilization where the players are trying to score victory points via intellectual developments. And the building of monuments. All while avoiding negative disasters. Alright, so real quickly before I get into the details, just to review Yahtzee style dice rolling, if you're not familiar with this. Basically, you got to pull a dice, you roll them, you can keep some, you can re roll some others, re roll, you what you want, then once you've rolled the third time, you're stuck, you're locked in and you have to Alright. So, really, the only thing left to do is explain what the dice so the only components in this game are the dice. And then you have a sheet of paper, that's the right part of the roll and write, where you basically are xing or checking off a lot of boxes based upon what you roll. We'll let x out some things. So let's talk about that. So first, food. So food is important because food is what to feed the citizenry in your cities and your cities are your dice, okay? So at the start of the game everybody has three cities and that means that they are rolling three dice. However, you can build more cities as you do that you roll more dice, but the catch is for every city or die that you are rolling you have to pay one food. To feed that offer food you have one face will show three food and another face has two food on it. Okay. If you come up short and you can't pay your cities for every point you fall short, you take a negative disaster Famine point. Right. Next, the workers. So how do we get these cities to where we get more dice? Well, it's through workers. So workers. Again, much like food, you have one face that has three workers on it, or you have another face that has two workers And you can use workers in one of two You can X off little boxes on cities that fill in all this, the boxes, you get more dice, or there's an area on your sheet that has monuments And these are different structures of different numbers of boxes. anywhere from like three boxes all the way up to like, um, 15 boxes. And if you allocate your workers to those monuments, if you fill in all the boxes associated with a monument, you have built it and that will net you a certain number of victory points, more points if you're the first But if you get there after somebody else, you can still score Third are the goods. So goods are like this little vase. And I'm not going to spend too much time here. Just understand that there's this whole second hardwood pegboard that comes with the game that tracks your goods. There's five different types of goods. They scale at different rates. So as the peg moves to the right, when you acquire goods, you get more and more of a certain material. And as that builds, you turn that type of good in for to buy Just look at it online. I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time trying to cause it probably wouldn't Just understand goods are another way of income. They compound and There's like five different All right. Coins. Okay. So if you roll a coin, this is like goods, but it's just straight money. So every coin you roll is seven coins. And again, you use coins and goods together to buy developments. This is probably one of the most thematic and that there's a list of things on your sheet, all these different civilizational advances like agriculture, engineering, leadership, things like that. And if you spend the right amount of money. You will X that thing, showing that your civilization has achieved that. You get a certain number of points and then that will give you a static benefit for the rest of So for example, leadership will give you another re roll, like a single re roll of a die for the rest coinage, now coins when you roll them are worth 12 instead of 7. They're just different And then lastly Can't not mention this disasters. any civilization game has to have disasters It's part of the game. Okay, whether it's a board game or a computer game, right? So the way that these work, there's a couple of things to know about If you roll a skull it locks that die So Yahtzee rolling where you can pick up and reroll a skull is locked You cannot reroll Another thing about skulls is that if you roll too many of they can hurt you, right? So, for roll two skulls, lose two disasters. If you roll four skulls, you lose four points. Interestingly, if you roll three skulls, you actually hurt your opponents. Pestilence. right? And they'll lose three One other really, really important thing to understand about skulls is it's just not negative though. They also have two goods icons. Pictured on them. So whenever you roll a skull, you'll get two goods to add to your good in goods So that's all the die faces play continues on in this way until one player has either claimed five developments Or the players corporately have built all the this happens and the players have all had an equal number how you play Roll Through the Ages. Generally.
BillI will add that, and you may have said it, but specifically say it, that you can sell your materials with your coins To buy developments
ChrisRolled coins plus whatever goods you have stored can be spent. To buy developments. And there are some rules about you can only have so all that. I'm not, I know that's a rule. Okay. I'm We'll cover it All right. So, Another dice roller. We've been rolling a lot of dice okay. Um, But I think for this one, Cause we haven't done a lot of Civ mostly long. Like Sid Meier's Civilization is really long, right? to be on the long This one's not It's fat real fast. Okay. So I guess I would start thematic how do you feel like this dice checker captured the Civ think it did a good
CameronYeah, I mean, I think one of the things that I look evaluate thematic if there are actual game that are named and that, align for example,
Chrisgive me an
Cameronexample. Yeah, so, so we played a game last night, of this, and I had the And what masonry lets you do is roll a dice And, on theme, you have more people large structures, faster, let's say, right. And so
Chrisin the
CameronI was able to build a lot of structures, pretty quickly. and so it was like, okay, that, yeah, know, leadership. you might have a your dice influence, control I liked stuff like that. And I, I, you could go down the whole list, particularly there.
BillYeah, I'll have to 100 percent agree. I will say that, when I was growing up and, you know, uh, it's funny listening to you guys talk about your, Switch based games. I mean, mine was PC games. And then, and all of those were turn based games at the time because you couldn't do real time games. And one of the, the biggest ones out there was Sid Meier's And so, I, I just loved like one of my games. And all of these developments in here are right out of, uh, The original civilization, like irrigation agriculture and all of those things just hit all those bullet points of that original civilization.
Chrisyour brain stem is tingling.
BillI was like, Oh my God, this is my game right here now. Um, So yeah, I mean, the way, the way they implemented this, this was just right on theme for me. So I was, I was super excited and playing from, from, a theme
Chriswas just right on theme for me. So, I was, I excited playing this a point of I knew that you had not had a lot of experience in the board game format of so I was excited to see how it play out on another nice thematic thing they do is this idea behind, feeding your cities, right? Because in a dice rolling game, you wanna roll more dice, right? But the way they handle that mechanically and thematically well, yeah, more dice are great, but. that's not necessarily without risks, right? Because you have more cities, people be fed and you're rolling all these extra dice. But if you can't feed them, your people are going to starve and you're going to take negative points, right? And so while logically it makes sense that if you take on more dice, you're probably going to roll more food and you often do. You can still believe me.
CameronHehehehe.
ChrisHave rolls where you can't roll food to save your life, and you have all these cities and you're taking negative points because your people are starving.
CameronCause
BillI mean I that that catch 22 I thought was
ChrisYeah. Cause you're also, you know, you're getting extra dice to do other things. But again, the more dice to take the more dice you have to dedicate to food, which from a points scoring standpoint, doesn't really do anything just keeping you from not losing points. Right. So there's some,
Billthere are a lot of things going on here that I think work well together. And I think that is one, the pro and con of that happening. The developments, I think also all of the pluses that you get create a development just And I feel like designed super well. for instance, get, irrigation. If you roll two different skulls, which would normally be a drought, you don't take a negative two points for that. So, so, and that frees you up that if you roll two skulls, then you can like go for pestilence, which is going to be minus three for everybody else. Right? So, to me, the whole point of, design path to let you, let you say, okay, this is how you achieve different things. Cause you could like ignore that and go a totally different path and win, which the last time we played, I went and kind of, I won't say ignored that path, but I don't know, to me, there's a, there's a few different paths on that developments tree that will allow
ChrisAnd that's just total eye candy. Right. I think the developments do a good job of oh yeah. Oh,
BillRight.
Chrisoh, that looks cool. Oh, I want to, oh man, I wanna do that, you know? All of them are pretty sexy, you know? they're fun to look at and think about. The possibilities, I will say one thing for me too, Disasters is a part of You know, so you can't knock a a Civilization game, whether it's a long one like Sid Meier's If you don't have disasters and calamities and pestilence So, it's good that that's in It should be. But I do like it when games take negative faces of a die and at least gives you right? And so, while you might roll two skulls on yourself and lose two points, you got four goods, which is not trivial, right? So, it, it softens a negative, and like you said, Bill, if you get your developments situated right, you can actually turn skulls into, A good thing and even like an offensive weapon, against your So I appreciated that the skull basically what i'm saying is i'm glad that the skull face was not just a skull You know what? I mean? Otherwise, then it would feel More punishing and probably not
Cameronit. definitely balances that out, it's built in Because, if you roll enough You're inevitably cause the way, and, and it's, I know we didn't chart
Chrisof
Camerondude. Yeah. Like the second I got development
Chriswhich is minus four points, but it's eight goods. an insane amount of
Camerongoods. Right. the whole point is that each of these different types of goods from the bottom to the top, like they scale at different paces, And so when you get could be your stuff. And so that's, interesting because what that's going to put you in a position for is like, yeah, you got a disasters, but now you a pretty powerful development, know, potentially fairly early on in the game, which is that happened how that So yeah. it's
Chrisit's, cool. So it's totally unnecessary, but the game comes with these really chunky wooden boards with wooden pegs to track your goods. Again, completely unnecessary. But they're well made and they just look cool. And then wooden dice, which are pretty big, you know, blocky dice, laser engraved. Yeah. So it's a cool looking for as simple as it is. I think it's worth
CameronFor a game that's based
ChrisYeah, totally. All right. What did you guys not Like
Billlike? a few bad rolls feels like can absolutely kill your game and to be
Chrisa hundred percent. Especially early.
BillYeah early, yeah, and I will say it will certainly give you the illusion that will kill your game and sometimes the reality is it'll kill your game Yeah, because sometimes you can feel like my game is lost and you could still really be in it without knowing it But you certainly have that the angst oh I I, this game is really, really fast, I guess, because it's going to, it's going to go pretty quickly. I think even in the game that, that I, I won last time, I feel like I had a couple of bad roles where I
ChrisNo, at
BillNo, at the beginning, at the beginning, I had some bad roles. Yeah. I mean, I had some, I had, well, bad in that. I did, I did bank some food, which I wasn't trying to do, but it is kind of funny that that can be a good strategy.
Chrisrole you rolled Food and workers.
BillYes, I did
Chrismean, you unlocked the fourth die right off the bat, right?
BillI did. I did do that. So that's not terrible. That's not terrible. But, um,
ChrisI'm not trying to undermine you. I'm just,
Billno, but I want to say in one of our previous games, I had something that felt like I was totally out of it. Um, and then, you know, at least kind of became pseudo competitive. I guess it also kind of depends on what somebody else rolls. I know that you, you feel like you had a really bad streak. And,
ChrisOh for sure. Yeah,
Billand I know that if you have three of those roles where, you know, you're getting negatives every time and not feeding your cities you are kind of out of you, you kind of know the end
Chrisearly. I think if you have like some not ideal rolls like middle to because you're probably rolling more dice at killer, but you really do need to get going. of fast in this game. The reason being, and we can talk about this too, because this might be a but the reason to be rolling Okay. One, because it's a liability, right? Two, because. I don't want to get too much into details, but when you're rolling just three dice, you can have just straight up bad Like if you roll a coin with just rolling three dice and you have no goods, that's like rolling nothing. Cause everything is at minimum cost 10 and a single coin is seven. And that's happened to me a few times where I rolled like a coin and no good, but that's just eight
CameronRight.
Chrisand you need 10. So actually that was like two of your three dice And so if you're not. Getting one or two extra dice going pretty early and like getting moving You will fall behind you'll feel behind and then what will start happening nailed by
BillPestilence, right
Chrisand That's another thing is I feel like you know There are cool developments in there and you can see the pathways But I do feel like a couple of these at least one of these developments is like you have to
CameronYou have, to
ChrisLike, because the points are not super high. I mean, they're like teens to maybe low And if you get hit with pestilence three times, like I did last game, cause I literally couldn't buy the development. Cause I just wasn't rolling them. You've lost nine You're done at that point. Right.
CameronWe had a
ChrisOh man, they were coming out like crazy.
Cameronfor context,
BillEvery roll, I was doing
ChrisOh
Cameronfor
Chrisit
Billfelt so good.
Cameronplaying on Yucata and I don't know if you guys have played on Yucata, It's amazing you can play games like that, but it's not like this most like sophisticated way to play board games online in the sense that can't really see what opponents like actively, if you're,
Chrisyou can, but you have to click
Cameronsomething, you kind of have to like do this stuff to like observe it, but, but it's only after they've taken So you, you can inspect what other people have done, but what I mean is. It's not like at the table, you're seeing their role. You're seeing their next role. You're seeing their next role. And so you almost like, don't see it coming. And so your turn pops up and it's like, Hey, you lost nine points. And you're like, sorry, what? Last,
Billwhat's wrong with you? You lost
CameronI had four disasters. Now I have eight, like what in the
Chrisin the
CameronUh, so. And that's just a Yukata I but I, agree it, it, there are certain things, because the game is if you had more time, overcome this sort of negative reality that like, maybe you can and you minus two yourself to pestilence. and that stinks have to take your
Chrisand that's two, of your five developments, right? And that's the thing I come back it dangles all these cool paths in front of you and all these cool developments. And you can go for that, but are you real? Are you really going to risk and be like, you know what? I'm not going to protect disasters. You'll get nailed, especially if you're playing four players. You're toast. Three players, really pushing your luck. Two players, you might be able to
Billwith it. Well, I didn't. I didn't choose
ChrisWell, that's because you were the one rolling, I didn't choose it either, and I lost like 12 points, right? I mean, I wasn't rolling skulls, so, I mean, I mean, I guess you got away with case, but I didn't. I got nailed over
BillI was doing the nailing, so
CameronI think that, like, since like, I, I would say it plainly I think my issue is that I think the whole five Ends the game is not a good in condition
ChrisTotally agree.
CameronI I had a tough time. I was I was texting Chris earlier today going man. I'm thinking about trying nail down what I think about it because know, i'm always asking that question when i've got to review a game of are so many things about this game that I do think are But if I feel like my play ends up being like, well, I better make, happen so fast. then it stressful And, and it's the length of the game I think my fun in jeopardy, And I know that the game is designed to but, it's, I think it's,
Christhink
Cameronbecause I think that you need more levers to in terms of getting that place, getting, your specialty and get that to where you really feel like you're not kind of starting every well, I hope I get what I really need every roll, right? Like what you want to see in style engine building type games is that by the, I don't you've got you can kind of lean progress in order to mitigate. the randomness, And I don't really feel like you have that much of that, or at least not for long before the game is you kind of need this baseline two developments or three developments just
Chrisand yeah, again, as Bill mentioned, you can just forego those, but you are taking a risk,
CameronDoes, does the
ChrisRight. It's a player, it's a player controlled end. If you're taking the fifth one, it's because you think you've got it. Right. And so probably it is true, although something could happen, but yeah, that to be how our games It's so easy to get those ones. Right. know, just to get the points
BillThe last game we played, when I filled out the Great Wall of China, that protects you from attack, Um, I also filled out my last development, which was a 10 point
Chrisend the game, right?
Billin the game, because I knew you guys couldn't come back. Which, it's like, go for the jugular,
Chrisgo for the jugular
CameronBut I think that's what we're Is that it five
BillTrue. But if we, but if we added,
Chris5 development end game condition.
BillRight. But if we'd have played five more turns, I'm not sure you guys could have come
ChrisMaybe.
BillMaybe I, maybe, I don't know.
ChrisI guess my point into final thoughts and are you alright with that I now start I guess okay I'll just go right into so I guess my problem with that is I'm I may still not win but at least I got to that's the thing that gets me about this game is it dangles these really awesome developments at the end that are real expensive I'm like man it'd be so cool if I could get that and then just by the time Got enough dice and you've got enough goods and you finally got into a position You buy it and maybe you use it one round and the game's dang it I just want to do this cool thing, right? But it just it's over. It's just over so fast That you just don't feel like you can get anything cool going Whether you win or not, the lower cost developments are helpful and cool, but the ones that are expensive are real You want to use them, right? But it takes a lot of like investment and rolling the right things in early turns to get And I just feel like that for like maybe every game where you actually can pull it off and get like that dopamine hit and be like, ah, it was awesome. You're going to have three games where you're like, in molasses, you know, just can't get it working, right? Because the dice just aren't coming up right or whatever. And so, you know, while I mentioned, you know, the slow start can take you out of a game, that's problematic. that was really the just felt myself being over. And so, because of that, I'm going to land on a three for it. And I hate it thematically I think It makes sense. It's got cool ideas. It's just over I don't know. It just left me I You.
BillAwesome. So,
ChrisI give this game a five. It's
Billreally? I mean, I really enjoyed this game. I mean, it's a short, it's a great filler. Yeah. I mean, I mean, Chris is going to give me a hard time. Cause I had the, the, the wind glow at the end of Um,
Chrisplay bias,
BillYeah. I did lose the, like the first couple of times he played. but I did feel like I was learning I think there's choices to be made when you play your dice. I totally, totally agree that like a house rule where you can somehow make the game play a little longer would be Exactly. Cause even, even when winning, there's, Two of the developments at the end will give you like, plus one point for every development you have, or one for every city you have. And so if you go with the, let me build a bunch of cities route, so I'm rolling a bunch of dice. That could be a huge game changer, because you could get eight points at the very end.
Chrisplus
BillYeah, with just, with just that one, cause it's 8 points for that one and then 8 points for the number of cities you have. That would be a 16 point turnaround at the very end. And I, it's hard to imagine the way the rules are set up right now that somebody could get that. Cause you would have to
ChrisI got the one right below it.
Billgame where Yeah, yeah. Right, exactly. I Right, but you only had two monuments, right? So you had a plus two from that, right? Yeah, exactly. So Yes. Exactly. Cause you, it, it's like, you would have needed more workers to get thing. So it's, yeah, it's all this Catch 22, there's this whole, you don't have time to build your engine component that, that I do think is But, I think, that could be addressed. I mean, I think there's, there's something in here. I mean, you could, you could say, okay, maybe you do both, right? You do five and you complete all the then the game I mean, that would be a fairly,
ChrisYeah,
Billyeah, yeah, exactly. So, um, excites me about it. I don't know this, these are one of the kinds of games that, for me trips my trigger of, nostalgia. and,
Chrisgot you
Billit's got you. I mean, it is one of those things that, you know, I don't necessarily like the dice games like this where there does have a look component, but I do feel like this gives you the ability to mitigate it in a bunch of different ways, like getting leadership by getting bunch of different they get you through there. So I'm going to give it a five cause I mean, I loved it. I would play it again. I will trade Igor for
Chriswouldn't play it again. I
BillSo, um, is, a fun game. You should, you should get it and don't listen to
Chrisyou get it, don't listen to Chris. It's fun. If you're rolling everything that you could want and it's just coming up roses like it was last night for Bill. I mean literally just rolling like I'm saying I could. It is fun. I've been on that Where I was rolling. Great. Everything was working out. I was like, But man, when you have the opposite game of that, it doesn't
BillAre you talking about the ad? This is
CameronYes. Are you talking about the AI?
Billlistens to in the car now that
CameronBill listens to in the car. Now he would create songs on AI about how great he is at
BillI can't believe you're outing me Yeah. I don't know if you want to include it or
Cameronthis is, this is why you need to join the discord. Cause we're going to get them to put it The tracks that he created on the discord for everyone to enjoy and
Billyeah.
Cameronall right, I'll give my final thoughts. So, my thoughts on this are very I think I really wanted really like this game. thematic standpoint, Even just from like a round around thing, I liked it. I thought Jason's take was pretty funny. We got to curmudgeon into this. He, he got done,
Chriswhen we
Cameronhe got done playing. He's like, you just, you just roll your dice and you just, you know, wait 20 minutes in between turns. Uh, but I think even, even with that, low cognitive of game, right? And I, I had a lot of like high hopes for it, but whole abrupt ending it's kind of like when you play a D and D campaign scraggle your way five, and you're looking player's handbook. I don't know work for anybody
ChrisI know, what
Cameronin the audience, but, but you look at through the player's handbook and you're when I get to I get this really cool stuff. I'm
Chriscan't wait to use it. Sweet
Cameronmove that I'm going to get to crush my enemies with, and then your campaign breaks up and you never actually
ChrisAnd then you start another one you start level one in the tavern again
CameronRight. And, and it,
BillI have sleep, I swear.
ChrisMagic missile again
CameronAnd it feels like that a little bit. You're like. I want to get all this epic tier moves the rug gets pulled out from under you and the game's over and you have you know negative 12 uh disasters
Billwhiners.
Cameronbecause you got pestilenced multiple times uh you didn't have medicine
ChrisI don't
Cameronknow that's that's kind of where I land on it it's just like I honestly, I really would end But because we have to rate games how they come out of the box, I've got to also I don't think it's bad. I don't think it's but I can't give it high of that that's where I land as well. That's a three.
BillPerfect. Okay.
ChrisSo if you want to pick this game up, there are copies available on noble night. Again, our 10 percent discount code is holiday 24. There are also 26 copies on the BG marketplace and I'm pretty sure you can buy this still direct from Eagle Griffin games for pretty cheap probably as well. I don't know what Their back stock is insane. I mean they have games from like the early 2000's still in their warehouse.
BillAnd cheap
ChrisYeah, when their holiday sales come on, I mean they're dollars. So, you can get this game, No problem.
Cameronwell, those are our thoughts on roll through the thank you guys for joining us on yet another wonderful, spectacular Christmas if you like what we're doing here, please remember it's a huge help. a rating or review on your podcast and on our various social media platforms, those simple things can make a difference for the show's exposure. So more folks can games with us. You can check out the BGG guild. If the discord. on there. We'd love to chat with you. You can also consider supporting the show at patreon. com slash hidden gems podcast. And until next time, I'm your host, Cameron,
Christhis is Chris.
Billand this is Bill.
Cameronlistening.
ChrisThis episode of Hidden Gems, number 71, was recorded in Raleigh, A little bit of real talk here, real quick. usually do this, but I'm not quite sure when our next
CameronHa
Chrisbecause it's Christmas and New Year's, if we can get enough plays in before the board game retreat, the plan is to do an episode on Queen Games. If not, we're gonna do a post mortem on our board game retreat and talk about games we played then. So, let's I don't know what's going to happen, but one of those two things, you're either going to get queen or we're going to talk about games. We played our retreat middle of January. tune in to find out.
BillIt'll be awesome
ChrisIt'll be awesome. Either way.
Camerongood reason to subscribe to the show.
ChrisI'm going to try real hard to hidden gems is produced and edited by Chris Sally, Cameron Lockie, Jason Yoncheleff, and Bill Arnie. A board game guild is monitored and managed Ghidorah. show's logo Caitlyn Check out her, We would love to hear from Gems Podcast Disagree with one of our Discord channel or on guild
